In memory of Shree Pramod Mahajan

Shree Pramod Mahajan

(30 October 1949 - 03 May 2006)

Pramodji's :Last Interview on CNN IBN

It has been 10 days since the BJP's twin yatras got underway, but have they become a non-event? The media has begun to ignore them. So, is the BJP on a yatra to nowhere? That’s the critical question that Karan Thapar puts to the General secretary BJP, Pramod Mahajan on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Mid-Day and Hindu newspapers call the yatra a flop, The Hindustan Times and The Indian Express are talking about bored audiences, The Times of India and The Telegraph say that people get up and leave when L K Advani starts to speak. Was the yatra a mistake?

Pramod Mahajan: No, I have personally visited Advaniji during this yatra in Maharashtra. And I was with him throughout his Maharashtra tour - in the tribal areas, rural areas, the sugar belt, the NCP belt and the Congress belt. And I think the yatra is tremendously successful and we were able to communicate our viewpoint, like the mid-time appraisal of the UPA Government, to the people of our country.

Karan Thapar: Except that you are talking to your own party cadres. You are talking to people who anyways vote for BJP. What is the point of preaching to the converted?

Pramod Mahajan: No, that is not true. Cadres don't come in thousands and they don't come throughout your journey. Advaniji’s followers are like a human chain that follows him across the country.

Karan Thapar: Newspapers have ignored you. You have disappeared from television completely.

Pramod Mahajan: No, firstly newspapers have not ignored us. And we do understand that when one embarks on a 35-day yatra, one doesn’t expect a Delhi-based newspaper to give a front-page headline every day, especially when you are travelling somewhere in Andhra Pradesh.

Karan Thapar: But you didn't get a front page on the second day also. First you disappeared from the inside pages and now you have disappeared all together.

Pramod Mahajan: No, that is not true. When we were around Maharashtra we made headlines in that state. When we will be in Karnataka then we will make headlines there. So, it has become a regional issue. One can’t expect headlines in Delhi every day when we are travelling the length and breadth of the country.

Karan Thapar: Let's try and establish some of the facts of the yatra. Is it not true that L K Advani took the decision without properly informing or consulting any of the senior party leaders?

Pramod Mahajan: No, he consulted many senior party leaders before embarking on this yatra.

Karan Thapar: But was it in a proper formal meeting?

Pramod Mahajan: There was no formal meeting. You don’t always need a formal meeting for everything.

Karan Thapar: So, it was individual telephone conversations but no formal meeting?

Pramod Mahajan: No, it was not individual telephone conversations either. He discussed it with many colleagues who were there during the Parliament session. He also discussed it with me, which was a telephonic conversation, as I was in Assam.

Karan Thapar: Is it not the case that the decision was communicated to Rajnath Singh as a fait accompli and he had no alternative but to accept it?

Pramod Mahajan: See, any discussion on phone is communication technically. He definitely sought the advice and the permission of the party president. They both took the decision together.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that he sought the permission and the advice of Rajnath Singh. But on March 15 Singh told the Business Standard, "Advaniji called me up and said that the consensus among party leaders in Delhi is that such a yatra should take place and I concurred." In other words, he was communicated a consensus; he wasn't asked for permission.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. What he told Rajnathji, who was in Varanasi at that time, was that he has discussed the matter with his collegues and they also agreed that he should go on a yatra. And then Rajnathji said: “Yes, I also agree.”

Karan Thapar: But isn't this also true that Rajnath Singh spent weeks trying to persuade Advani to give up the idea.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I don't think Rajnathji tried to persuade Advaniji for weeks.

Karan Thapar: Your party colleagues say that he was almost in tears.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t know who you are talking about. Nobody was in tears and why should one be anyways? Everyday Rajnathji is getting good publicity, he is the party president and he is travelling throughout the country. Why should he be unhappy about it?

Karan Thapar: Such good publicity that in between he even gave up the yatra and left for Meerut because he was looking for any excuse to disappear.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am sorry but his Meerut visit was on the last day of his yatra’s first leg. If he didn’t visit the city then you would have said that the man continued with his yatra though there was such a tragedy.

Karan Thapar: Is it also not true that despite whatever Atal Bihari Vajpayee may say, when Sonia Gandhi announced her resignation from Parliament, he called Advani and said that this is the perfect excuse and opportunity to call the yatra off.

Pramod Mahajan: I really don’t know how the press publishes such things. It sounds as if Vajapyee has personally told somebody in the press regarding this issue. Vajpayee never rang Advaniji asking him to abandon the yatra.

Karan Thapar: Your own party colleagues are saying this.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are these colleagues?

Karan Thapar: Your own members of the BJP, individuals as well as people in groups are informing journalists.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are these party members? Can you quote or name anybody? Has anybody who matters spoken to the press? Only then can I support what you are saying.

Karan Thapar: They say that the yatra is a desperate attempt by Advani to promote himself and to eclipse Rajnath Singh’s leadership.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are they? I don't know these invisible theys you are talking about. Secondly, what does Advaniji have to project? He has been in politics for the last five decades. He was the president of BJP for 15 years. He was the deputy-prime minister. Why does he need to project himself in any way?

Karan Thapar: Except that at the moment his career is declining. The RSS is upset with him and the party itself has lost confidence in him.

Pramod Mahajan: These are all your interpretations. During the yatra, RSS Sarsanghchalak Sudarshanji called Adavniji when he was in Solapur. He asked after his health and how the yatra was going. The Sarsanghchalak himself calling Adavniji during the yatra is no indication for you, but some Tom Dick or Harry who is not ready to come on record tells you that RSS is opposing Advaniji and you believe them.

Karan Thapar: Talking about the Sarsanghchalak, let me point it out to you that Madan Das Devi told The Indian Express on March 20, "The Sangh has nothing to do with Advani's decision to launch yet another yatra."

Pramod Mahajan: I can say that Mohan Bhagwat, who is the general secretary of RSS, the second-in-command, has officially said the yatra is a good decision. And naturally the Sangh would support it.

Karan Thapar: The Sangh Sarchalak who holds the number one position in the RSS has issued a statement published by the Organiser on April 2 and all it said was that there is no question of the Sangh opposing it. That is not strong support; it is the most lukewarm support possible.

Pramod Mahajan: The press had been saying that the Sangh is opposing the yatra. So, the Sarsanghchalak said that the Sangh is not opposing it.

Karan Thapar: Where are the Sangh cadres supporting L K Adavni's yatra? They are supporting Rajnath Singh in Orissa, not supporting Advani.

Pramod Mahajan: This is again a media mischief. The Sangh is not expected to join every political programme of BJP. Actually, nobody in the media understands the relationship between the RSS and the BJP. RSS members are not there to make BJP programmes a success.

Karan Thapar: But the Leader of the Opposition seems to be attracting no crowd during his yatra. Newspapers are ignoring it, papers are calling it a flop, people are walking away, so one would expect the Sangh to come out and support him. But they are supporting Rajnath Singh and not Advani.

Pramod Mahajan: Who said that to you?

Karan Thapar: The papers are reporting it. Individual RSS members are saying so.

Pramod Mahajan: No, please give me a minute. Now, who said they are supporting Rajnath? One reporter writes the RSS is supporting Rajnath Singh, as if the reporter knows what is really happening in the RSS. Let me first tell you what the RSS is expected to do. It is an organisation, which does its own work. The second Sarsangh Chalak Param Pujya Guruji’s birth centenary is going on. So they are not expected to follow Advaniji's yatra.

Karan Thapar: That is precisely why they (RSS) are angry with Advani. The RSS wanted to concentrate on Guruji’s anniversary and not on the yatra.

Pramod Mahajan: The BJP’s political programmes should be done by BJP workers. We should not expect RSS workers to support every programme we take.

Karan Thapar: Let’s look at the yatra in another light. In the middle of elections and exams, when temperatures are touching 40 degrees and when there is no palpable Hindu anger in the country, is this the right time for a political yatra?

Pramod Mahajan: Who is to decide this? You or we?

Karan Thapar: The crowd's response will determine whether the yatra is a success or not.

Pramod Mahajan: Have you seen the crowds? I have seen the crowd throughout the journey. I am an eyewitness of the number of people who are coming to meet Advaniji. I can show you the cuttings of local newspapers also. So, somebody sitting in Delhi and a couple of newspapers cannot be the gospel truth.

Karan Thapar: Does the yatra have a clear-cut purpose or motive? It began as a national integration yatra and then converted into a Bharat Suraksha Yatra. It began with twin names and ended up with a five-fold message. Now, the leaflet officially issued by the BJP says that the Bharat Suraksha Yatra has nine separate themes. What is the yatra about?

Pramod Mahajan: The UPA Government has completed two years at the Centre. So, we have taken this opportunity to mobilise public opinion against the misdeeds of UPA for the past two years. So, naturally right from farmers to bomb blasts, everything is taught, depending upon the audience you are addressing in a particular state.

Karan Thapar: One of your critical themes is what you call minority appeasement. And one of your most important examples is the manner in which the UPA Government has defied the Supreme Court by converting the Foreigner's Act into a second IMDT Act. This would have had great resonance in Assam in the middle of elections. But your yatra ignores North East India completely.

Pramod Mahajan: Please try to understand, the yatra started on April 6 and Assam elections were over by April 10.

Karan Thapar: So you could have spent four days in Assam.

Pramod Mahajan: Please try to understand the geography of this country. Advaniji has spent about a week in Assam campaigning on the subject you are talking about. Rajnath Singh has spent five days in Assam. You don't need a yatra to go on campaigning against IMDT or against UPA Government. Advaniji has done his duty.

Karan Thapar: He could have started the yatra earlier if the object of the yatra is to educate people.

Pramod Mahajan: I again ask, why do you need a yatra to go to Assam? Advaniji wen
t to Assam for a week. He campaigned for what you are saying so where does the question of a yatra arise.

Karan Thapar: If minority appeasement is such a critical element then why are you spending so much time in BJP-ruled states. Are you suggesting that your own governance is responsible for minority appeasement?

Pramod Mahajan: The first state he (Advani) started was BJP-ruled. However, the second state was a Congress-ruled state.

Karan Thapar: Yes, but after that you have got Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Karnataka, Chattisgarh, Jharkand, and these are all BJP-ruled states.

Pramod Mahajan: Well, what can I do if most of the states are BJP-ruled.

Karan Thapar: But, you are ignoring the whole of North East and Kerala. Kerala passed a resolution against Abdul Nasser Madani, leader of the People’s Democratic Party, and it concerns Advani but it is not part of your yatra.

Pramod Mahajan: I am going to Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Punjab, which are all non-BJP states. Now if there are so many BJP-ruled states then what can I do?

Karan Thapar: But, the states where your message would be most effective have been ignored. States where illegal Bangladeshi infiltration matters, like North East and West Bengal, have been ignored by you. States where in fact Assemblies are passing resolutions that the BJP objects to like Kerala have been ignored. The states where your message is needed you have avoided.

Pramod Mahajan: I have answered you several number of times as far as Assam is concerned. And as far as the political message is concerned, Advani has given maximum number of days to Assam. He is going to campaign in West Bengal and Kerala during the yatra weekends.

Karan Thapar: But why aren't they part of the yatra?

Pramod Mahajan: Logistically, it is not possible to go everywhere.

Karan Thapar: If logistics is the concern, then answer this question. A second major issue that the yatra raises is to expose Sonia Gandhi’s so-called fake sacrifice. It is written in BJP's official leaflet. It is listed as the third most important point. It is one of the five-fold message. She faces an election in Rae Bareli in a short while but you are ignoring it. Are you scared of challenging her face-to-face?

Pramod Mahajan: The yatra is not ignoring Rae Bareli. Definitely election campaign leaders will go to Rae Bareli and secondly Sonia Gandhi's so-called sacrifice will be over the moment she files for nomination.

Karan Thapar: But it is one of the aims of your yatra however much you may dispute it or be embarrassed by it.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am not embarrassed by it. It is not the main objective of the yatra.

Karan Thapar: Let me point out another main objective of the yatra. Though you may not call it the main one, but the BJP leaflet does. The yatra talks about the need to protect what it calls India's parliamentary democracy. You talk at great length about the illegal unconstitutional dissolution of the Bihar Assembly. Five months after the Bihar elections this is not a subject which is going to arouse popular passion. This is an academic seminar subject. Why do you bring it up now?

Pramod Mahajan: Again I say that there may be 10 points written in a leaflet.

Karan Thapar: This is one of the top five.

Pramod Mahajan: I don't agree with it.

Karan Thapar: You don't agree with it? But it is part of the official leaflet issued by the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: Karan, you are giving too much importance to a leaflet which has some 10-12 points. And the priority of the points will be decided by where one goes.

Karan Thapar: But this is the brochure officially issued by the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: Just to make a point debatable, you are giving too much importance to the Bihar Assembly dissolution.

Karan Thapar: It seems to me just to escape from the embarrassment you are trying to minimise the importance of your own party's brochure.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am not minimising any brochure but I am not reading it as a Bible either.

Karan Thapar: This yatra serves no useful purpose. Far from enthusing the country it is going to confuse people.

Pramod Mahajan: I said the yatra is serving a very good purpose. It is galvanising the BJP cadre, it is creating a public opinion against the UPA and I am very sure by the end of the yatra we will mobilise millions of BJP workers in this country.

Karan Thapar: All this yatra does is prove that L K Advani is an old man in a hurry who is prepared to put his personal ambition ahead of his party's interests.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I think this is a very wrong allegation. It saddens me with the way you are asking. Advaniji is not in a hurry. He has served this nation for five decades. And accusing this man of having personal ambitions only makes me sad.

Karan Thapar: In January you wrote for the Organiser, "The chariot of BJP dharmaraj has touched the ground. The BJP should not lose faith in itself. The BJP should try and come out of its present eclipse." What exactly is the problem that BJP is suffering from?

Pramod Mahajan: I think that after we lost power in 2004 there were many problems that the BJP faced. Naturally, there was some kind of internal indiscipline. There was lack of collective decision-making system. And when I was writing this piece I thought before we formed the government the chariot was more like the dharmaraj. The chariot was nearly flying a few inches above the ground but now it had touched the ground. So, we must have the BJP in which we take collective decision. We should be a disciplined party. There should integrity, family-like atmosphere amongst the leaders. That sort of a thing was in my mind when I wrote that piece.

Karan Thapar: You were talking about all the things BJP used to be but no longer is. And you are now saying one must go back to that.

Pramod Mahajan: Yes. After one has travelled about 25 years as BJP and 50 years as Jan Sangh, there has been an increase in quantity but there is a slight decrease in quality. So, some sort of a quality control mechanism is needed for BJP.

Karan Thapar: Have BJP cadres and BJP quarters begun to lose faith in the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: No, I am not really talking about faith in BJP. This is because if you look at the elections since 2004 we are still winning one election after another.

Karan Thapar: You lost Maharashtra, though you shouldn't have.

Pramod Mahajan: I lost Maharashtra marginally.

Karan Thapar: So, when you say the BJP should not lose faith in itself then what do you mean?

Pramod Mahajan: What I mean is that we should work with self confidence. Whether you lose elections or win them, you should have faith in your ideology. One should also have faith in one's leadership, organisation and working strength.

Karan Thapar: Twice in the last one year you have
said that the BJP is in crisis. You said it in May last year and then in January this year. Is the crisis
continuing?

Pramod Mahajan: I don't think we are out of the crisis completely. We still have a long way to go.

Karan Thapar: You are frank enough to admit that it is in crisis. In the Organiser article that I quoted sometime back you also wrote, "A political party must always remember that its basic vote comes from those who believe in the ideology of the party. Good intentions and empathy are not good enough. Clear cut political ideology is needed." Has the ideology of the BJP become confused today?

Pramod Mahajan: See, the ideology is the same. So there is no question of ideology becoming diluted, confused or unclear. Only the projection of ideology should be in such a way that people understand what one stands for.

Karan Thapar: So there are problems with the projection of the BJP ideology?

Pramod Mahajan: Definitely, there are problems with the communication of this ideology with the masses.

Karan Thapar: In March 2004, BJP came out with a vision statement. At that time you personally told me that this would hold for 20 years. Less than two years later on critical issues like Article 370 and Uniform Civil Code, the vision statement has been overtaken. Was the old vision statement wrong or is the new vision mistaken?
Pramod Mahajan: I will tell you two things. As far as the Uniform Civil Code or the Article 370 is concerned, the BJP as a political party will have to position itself what exactly it wants.

Karan Thapar: You mean it hasn’t made up his mind.
Pramod Mahajan: Let me repeat again what I said. The BJP will have to position itself on exactly what it wants. We don’t want Article 370 to be part of the Indian constitution.

Karan Thapar: In the vision statement there was no mention of abrogating Article 370 at all. One day before the vision statement came out LK Advani, who was then Deputy Prime Minister, actually said that the BJP would no longer press for abrogation of Article 370. Yet in January this year at his speech to the national council your new party president brought abrogation of Article 370 right back on the agenda. So, clearly in two years on this one point the party has changed its vision.
Pramod Mahajan: As far as Article 370 is concerned, we believe that Article 370 was temporary. It should not be part of the Indian constitution. About Uniform Civil Code, all along we believe that Uniform Civil Code should be made applicable to this country. Having said so one must understand that for abolition of Article 370, you need two-third majority in Lok Sabha, and not only in Lok Sabha you need two-third majority in Rajya Sabha too.

Karan Thapar: I am saying that the position that you took on this issue in the vision statement has changed and that vision statement was for 20 years. That is why I asked you, is the party's ideology changing?
Pramod Mahajan: It’s not ideology changing; again I am saying the vision statement was in the light of the NDA government.

Karan Thapar: So, depending on the circumstances the vision keeps changing.
Pramod Mahajan: Vision does not change. My position on Article 370 or Uniform Civil Code never changes. But application of my vision or position depends upon the political strength that I have in the Indian Parliament.

Karan Thapar: The problem is it’s not just in terms of vision statement that party seems to be confused today. Your party president and your leader of the Opposition said different things about Jinnah, about Hindutva, about the RSS, about the need for ideology, about corruption in your ranks, and even about what the colour of the party's flag should be. Instead of speaking in one voice the party seems to speak in multiple voices.
Pramod Mahajan: No, except Jinnah, rest of the things you mentioned, I don’t think there is any difference of opinion.

Karan Thapar: Even on the small issue of the flag. Advani says that there is no issue of this nature, but Rajnath Singh clearly says that he has been approached by people about the colour of the flag.
Pramod Mahajan: What Rajnath Singh said that some people approached him about changing the colour of the flag. Advaniji said no such decision has been taken. Rajnath, when asked next day, said no such decision has been taken. Where is the difference of opinion?

Karan Thapar: Its not just that they have differences of opinion about flags, now today Advani seems to have reservations about decisions taken by the Vajpayee government over the handling of the Kandhar hijack. He now has the problems with the past not just the present.
Pramod Mahajan: No he didn’t say anything. I was sitting next to him.

Karan Thapar: He made it clear that his own position had been expressed in Cabinet, indicating that his position was different to that of the Cabinet. Everyone interpreted it as a sign of differences.

Pramod Mahajan: Whatever you want to interpret you are free to interpret. First thing he didn’t make any statement. When somebody asked the question he said that ‘it’s an old issue whatever I had to say about it I only said in the Cabinet’.

Karan Thapar: Then the press interpreted that answer as a sign of differences between himself and Vajpayee. Why did Advani not issued a correction.

Pramod Mahajan: Correction about what.

Karan Thapar: To say that press has misinterpreted me.

Pramod Mahajan: No he has already said it.

Karan Thapar: He has not.

Pramod Mahajan: He has.

Karan Thapar: Then why today is Vajpayee upset.

Pramod Mahajan: Who told you? I think Vajpayee is accessible to the press, he only talks to the press, if he is upset only press knows, if he is going to Lucknow press knows, and we don’t know anything.

Karan Thapar: Let me ask you a blunt question. How much damaged to the clarity of the BJP's ideology was done by Advani's comments about Mohd. Ali Jinnah.

Pramod Mahajan: I said that as far his comments about Mohd. Jinnah is concerned I think about 99 per cent people in the BJP don’t agree with him.

Karan Thapar:So has it done damage to BJP's clarity of ideology?

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think because if 99 per cent people have clarified what they want to say, Advani saying one thing does not damage the BJP's ideology.

Karan Thapar: So Advani was in a position of one per cent.

Pramod Mahajan: I can say that on Jinnah's issue.

Karan Thapar: Its a humiliating position for the leader of the Opposition to be in.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think its humiliating. You can’t have everybody going along at every point of time in your life.

Karan Thapar: But to have 99 per cent of your party against him is embracing, and it happened when he was party president as well.

Pramod Mahajan: We don’t agree what he said about Jinnah.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that as the result today people do not have a clear idea about what the BJP stands for.

Pramod Mahajan: No I don’t think so but I think that whenever you are communicating with one billion people, we should bring more and more clarity as far your thoughts are concern.

Karan Thapar: And clearly Advani didn’t help in bringing more and more clarity, did he.

Pramod Mahajan: He is the only person who has brought the maximum clarity to the BJP ideology in last two decades.

Karan Thapar: Except on the Jinnah issue.

Pramod Mahajan: Yes except on the Jinnah issue.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that the problems that we are talking about, and they are serious problems, problems to do with differences between the leadership, demoralisation of cadre, differences of ideology. Can these problems put right in the year 2006 or will things get worse before they get better.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think things will get worse. Things have started getting better. I am very sure that in couple of years from now when we will face elections in 2009 things will be absolutely clear.

Karan Thapar: That also means that the full escape from the present crisis will happen in a couple of years, not before that.

Pramod Mahajan: First one must understand in a political life the crisis does not come over night crisis does not vanishes over night. It takes time to build up like the clouds and it takes time to clear.

Karan Thapar: Pramod Mahajan, that is a very clear answer. Thank you very much for speaking to Devil’s Advocate.

Elections are not fought on ideological issues'

Interview with Pramod Mahajan, general secretary, BJP.

Pramod Mahajan, the Bharatiya Janata Party's general secretary in charge of party affairs in Maharashtra, is the architect of its Assembly election campaign in the State. He spoke to Dionne Bunsha about the BJP's strategy for the coming elections. Excerpts:

What is the BJP's strategy for the Maharashtra Assembly elections?

This is a regular election. So naturally, the main issue is the performance of the incumbent government. We feel it is the most non-performing and corrupt government Maharashtra has ever seen. There are four or five factors: The number of farmers who have committed suicide is the highest since the creation of Maharashtra. That itself shows the plight of the farmers. The number of Adivasi children who died owing to malnutrition is the highest [in the State]. It even prompted Sonia Gandhi to visit the State, which shows the gravity of the situation.
Maharashtra completed its rural electrification in the 1960s. But now there is unprecedented load-shedding in the State. Rural Maharashtra is not getting electricity for around eight to 10 hours every day. In the past few years, the government has put a ban on recruitment, which has led to large-scale unemployment. With riots and bomb explosions I don't have to explain the deteriorating law and order situation. Last but not the least, right from Telgi to sugar, you have had a scandal almost every month for the past five years.

All these factors put together have led to resentment in the people's mind. That is why even during the Lok Sabha election unlike the 1999 election, the Congress and NCP [Nationalist Congress Party] fought together. Still, we were able to snatch 25 seats. Although there is a tough battle ahead, I think there is an advantage for the Shiv Sena-BJP alliance.

Despite these problems, why has the BJP taken out the Tiranga Yatra and brought forward issues like Savarkar and Afzal Khan's tomb?

As far as the Afzal Khan issue is concerned, it was not raised by the BJP. The VHP takes up such programmes throughout the country. None of the BJP leaders made any statement nor did anyone from the BJP participate in it. I don't think Afzal Khan is an issue.

As regards tiranga or Savarkar, both of them have nothing to do with the Maharashtra government. It was brought up by the Congress. Something happened in Andaman and Savarkar, being a national hero and very special to Maharashtra, it was discussed for the last few weeks. Similarly, since Uma Bharati's yatra is going from Karnataka to Jallianwala Bagh, it would naturally pass through Maharashtra for a couple of days.
We have emphatically said that whether Savarkar or tiranga, these are issues of national importance, but as far as Maharashtra elections are concerned, they are not fought on these issues.

How would you judge the success of the Tiranga Yatra?

How would I know? Why should I judge it? Overall it seems that people are receiving the yatra enthusiastically. But nowadays, I am concentrating on the Maharashtra elections and am not commenting on anything but that.
A section of the media is repeatedly bringing up Savarkar and tiranga, when I am saying repeatedly that these are not my issues. These may be issues of national importance, but they are not an issue for the Maharashtra elections.

In which regions do you think there will be a tough fight?

I see a good lead in Vidarbha, a slender lead in Marathwada and north Maharashtra. We will lag behind in western Maharashtra. I see a good lead in Konkan. And, I feel that Mumbai is the key. For Mumbai, I would normally have predicted a very strong lead. But after losing five Lok Sabha seats, I am keeping my fingers crossed. From rural Maharashtra, we will come with a lead to the gates of Mumbai. If we maintain the same lead in Mumbai, we will enter Mantralaya or we will stand outside. That is my assessment.

After the Lok Sabha elections, the BJP decided to focus on Hindutva. How does that translate into tactics on the ground level?

These are national issues. One must understand that elections are separate. Ideological issues are not tested every time in elections. I am of the firm opinion that ideological issues give you reasons to be in a party and stay in that party. But you don't fight elections on ideological issues.

Elections are fought, unless it is an abnormal election, on normal daily problems - bijlee, pani, sadak (electricity, water, roads). If there is something like the Emergency or Ramjanmabhoomi andolan, at those times, the normal issues subside and emotional issues take over. I don't think that the elections in Maharashtra are fought on emotional or ideological issues.

Interview with Rediff.com after 9/11

In Delhi, Information Technology, Communications and Parliamentary Affairs Minister Pramod Mahajan is considered a man for all seasons. He spoke to Sheela Bhatt about the government's position in the aftermath of the terror attacks in the USA.

What was your first reaction to the September 11 disaster?

I was in Moscow at a meeting with Russian IT and telecom industry members. The moment the meeting was over, they gave me a slip of paper and informed me. I didn't believe it. We rushed to our hotel and saw the CNN footage. The first look was like a Hollywood film. It looked unreal. It's still hard to believe. Even today, I feel let someone say these were just film shots and untrue.
I called Delhi and tried to find out what was happening.

Any unusual reaction in Russia?

The same day President (Vladmir) Putin went on air. What I saw the following day was unusual. Since it was my first visit to Moscow, I went to the Kremlin, to a souvenir shop. I was carrying dollars in my pocket. I had not exchanged it for roubles because dollars are accepted everywhere (in Russia). I am told they (the Russians) die to get dollars. But a girl at that shop refused. She said the dollar rate had gone down by 30 per cent, though officially there wasn't a 2 per cent reduction. I requested her to accept 3, 4 dollars more over the exchange rate of $ 12, but she refused. In the end, the protocol officer paid on my behalf.
I think the terrorists have not just hit America's military and economic might but also its image of being a global giant.

How would you interpret this event?

It is not just against the might of America, it is an onslaught against the human race. The world looked at America and noted what a human race could achieve in business and military might. The terrorists have hit the world's belief in America's might. People are saying if it can happen in Pentagon, it means the whole human race is vulnerable.
The war has just begun, we will need patience and be vigilant. India has witnessed terrorism in all shapes and shades. Let us start with Mrs (Indira) Gandhi, followed by Rajiv Gandhi who was killed by a garland bomb. Then the third bomb which shook India was a car bomb aimed at the Punjab chief minister (Beant Singh).
Just before the attack on America, anti-Taleban leader Ahmad Shah Masoud was killed by a camera bomb. With technology, crime and evil has modernised.
Many non-resident Indians feel the Indian government should drum up its support to America to fight terrorism.
Quite right. but there are two viewpoints. I don't know how well-informed NRIs are about the Indian government. In India, criticism of the government is diametrically opposite to what the NRIs say. They want us to stand up and support the USA. Opposition parties think we are rushing towards the US. But I can assure one thing: India has risen to this occasion. India does not have to side with the Americans.
Frankly, it is India that is fighting a war against terrorism for the last two decades which America never realised. Yes, we have not lost over 5,000 people in one day but we have lost many more in the last 20 years. The world never paid attention to it. I think the Americans are now joining India's war against terrorism.
I have faith in American society today. I met the American ambassador to India Robert Blackwill, he too agreed that it is not a fight against one person or one nation. It is a fight against global terrorism. Success will come in instalments. It is a long drawn battle. India will be the only reliable nation in the US fight against global terrorism because India is the only country which is the hardest hit victim of terrorism.
I feel NRIs should impress upon the American government that their battle should not be limited to (Osama) bin Laden or Afghanistan, it should go beyond that.
You obviously mean Pakistan.
I have three points in relation with Pakistan.
First, America should make Pakistan see reason and convince Pakistan to honestly join the battle against terrorism. In return, if America gives Pakistan some billion dollars we don't have anything to grudge.
Secondly, the US should convince Pakistan that fighting terrorism does not mean fighting terrorism on the western border and inflicting terrorism on the eastern border. If they don't agree, we are still aware of the realities.
India is aware that in America's present short term plan, Pakistan has a role to play. We appreciate it, and we understand it. India will not put any condition at this juncture because we have faith in the people of America and government. Once they are through with their short term plan they will see the game.
In any case, India is quite competent to protect Kashmir. We have nothing to worry. We hope America will stand on the side of justice.
Like the old days, are America and Pakistan coming uncomfortably closer again?
I think the Americans want something to be done immediately. Look at the public anger. They feel insulted, humiliated. They were the mightiest power on the globe and 20 per cent of the Pentagon does not exist. The landmark in Manhattan disintegrated. Naturally, they are angry and they want some kind of revenge and we understand it. India's point will be heard once these emotions are satisfied and retaliation is over.

How best can the world fight this war?

The war against terrorism is not a conventional war. There are no victories and defeats. It's a continuous war. This is a war of the mind. A war against a certain system. The nations of the world will have to change their policies. The education system, economic, foreign policy and international laws will have to be changed. Those who feel the heat of terror will fight it. It is the most complex war.
How is India going to support America? Are we ready to provide military bases to them?
Nobody has asked us for any kind of base. This debate is avoidable at the moment. The fact is India is the first victim of this kind of terror. This is the turning point for India to fight terrorism. If America decides to take terrorism head on, India will be the largest beneficiary.
The retaliatory attack could be construed by some as a war on Islam.
No way. Prime Minister Vajpayee said on the first day that it is not so. We are not using the word Islam. How can we do it? Islam is not synonymous with terrorism.
The Congress worries about the RSS thinking on this matter.
How can they criticise? When Mrs Gandhi was assassinated, what happened? Congressmen blamed it on Sikh terrorism.
Leftists are worried India will be swayed on America's side, and many critics of the government wants the decision makers to understand the sensitivity of Muslims in India.
America is siding with us in our old fight against terrorism. Who is funding terror in Kashmir? Who is America targeting? Our enemy is the same. India is aware of its Muslim population. Even if we did not have a single Muslim in our country, we would have joined the war with the world. No religion can be blamed for the terror. But we have to fight the war which is weakening us.
When we fought a war against Pakistan these critics did not say it is a war against Islam. It was never the case. The same way, this war is not against Islam, this is a war against the perpetrators of the crime. When America locates the last man in this fight, we would see our enemy is the same

A Brief Sketch of Late Shree Pramod Mahajan- (www.bjp.org)

Name : Shri Pramod Venkatesh Mahajan

Father's Name : Shri Venkatesh Devidas Mahajan

Mother's Name : Shrimati Prabhavati Venkatesh Mahajan

Date of Birth : 30 October 1949

Place of Birth : Mahaboobnagar (Andhra Pradesh)

Marital Status : Married on 11 March 1972

Spouse's Name : Shrimati Rekha Pramod Mahajan

Children : One son and one daughter

Educational Qualifications : B.Sc. (Physics), M.A. (Pol. Sc.), B.A.(Journalism) Educated at Yogeshwari Mahavidyalaya, Beed, University of Pune and University of Aurangabad

Profession : Social Worker

Permanent Address : 1501, Purna Worli, Sagar Co-operative Housing Society, Pochkhanwala Marg, Worli, Mumbai 400025
Tel. - {022} 24935834

Present Address : 7, Safdarjung Road, New Delhi
Tel. - 23015432, 23014453

E-mail : pmahajan@sansad.nic.in

Positions Held :
1978-85 General Secretary, State Unit of Bharatiya Janata Party, Maharashtra 1983-85 All India Secretary, Bharatiya Janata Party 1986 and 1990-92 All India President, Bharatiya Janata Yuva Morcha, Youth Wing of B.J.P. July 1986 Elected to Rajya Sabha 1986-87 and 1992-98 All India General Secretary, Bharatiya Janata Party July 1992 Re-elected to Rajya Sabha 1994-96 Chairman, Committee on Transport and Tourism 1996 Minister of Defence 1996-97 Member, Eleventh Lok Sabha 2 April 1998 Appointed as Political Advisor to the Prime Minister of India July 1998 Elected to Rajya Sabha Dec.1998-Oct.1999 Minister of Information and Broadcasting with additional charge of Food Processing Industries 13 Oct.1999-29 Jan. 2003 Minister of Parliamentary Affairs and Water Resources (relinquished the charge of Ministry of Water Resources in November 1999) 22 Nov. 1999-29 Jan. 2003 Minister of Information Technology 1 Sept. 2001-29 Jan. 2003 Minister of Communications 29 Jan. 2003 onwards General Secretary, Bharatiya Janata Party Feb. 2003 - Feb. 2004 Member, Committee on Home Affairs July 2004 Re-elected to Rajya Sabha Aug. 2004 onwards Member, Committee on Defence

Social and Cultural Activities, Literary, Artistic and Scientific Accomplishments and other Special Interests :

Sports, Clubs, Favourite Pastimes and Recreation :

Countries Visited :
Extensively travelled in Europe, America, China, South East Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, Israel, South America and West Asia

Other Information :
Member, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (R.S.S.) since childhood; second year Sangh Shiksha Varg, activist of Akhil Bharatiya Vidhyarthi Parishad; working as a whole time Pracharak for Jana Sangh, Janata Party and Bharatiya Janata Party since 1974; Sub-Editor, Tarun Bharat, 1970-71; School Teacher, 1971-74; detained in Nasik Road Central Prison, Maharashtra during the Emergency, 1975-77

Interview in Time Magazine 16 October 2000

TIME: How much of the excitement around Indian IT is hype?Pramod Mahajan: I don't think it is hype at all. We have gone through the Green Revolution, where we made ourselves independent in food. In some parts of the country we had what we call the White Revolution, where milk production was increased. But I don't think there has ever been any kind of revolution that has set everybody on fire like the IT revolution.

TIME: Does India have the kind of infrastructure needed for an IT revolution?Mahajan: It depends on which way we look at it. If you ask me to look at it negatively, I would say, "PC penetration is not even 0.5%. Telecoms penetration is not even 3%. We don't have 24-hour uninterrupted electricity supply." But then, our strength is not in world-class telecoms or power infrastructure. It is in world-class human resources. Today, the people who are working in Silicon Valley are 100% made-in-India.

TIME: But having human resources won't solve the infrastructure problems.Mahajan: Dismantling our old system overnight is neither possible nor desirable. But we need to improve telecoms and power. At a policy level, the government has taken every decision that was needed. Now give us a couple of years to implement them. TIME: Still, the IT industry hasn't affected the lives of the majority of Indians.Mahajan: I agree. Sometimes people think IT is an English-speaking, élite, urban, southern-Indian phenomenon. But when I move around in the villages, people say: "Please do something about IT for us." Ministers ask me for IT parks -- half of them probably don't know that there are no trees, just chips. That is the yardstick of a revolution. The challenge before the IT industry is not exports worth $50 billion: that's going to happen anyway. The real challenge is to ensure that IT-enabled services reach the people. Within the next three or four years we should be able to show to the last man on the street that IT has improved his standard of life.

TIME: Do you agree that if the government had interfered with IT in the early years, this revolution would have failed?Mahajan: I have often repeated a joke that India has been successful in the IT and beauty industries because there were no ministries involved. But nowhere in the world can you develop an industry without government or the law. Who would talk about visas with the Germans? Who would sign memorandums of understanding with China? Who would ensure that Japanese was taught in India so people could do business with the Japanese?

TIME: Will India be able to keep up with the competition?Mahajan: Competition was a word used in the Old Economy, which was capital intensive. The New Economy is knowledge based, and cooperation is now the key word. That is why the Chinese Minister of Information Technology recently proposed to us a memorandum of understanding, which we signed, to exploit other markets. This was unimaginable a year ago.

TIME: So you're confident India will be a world power in IT?Mahajan: I don't want to use the word "superpower." That was a term used during the Cold War, and I am not at war with anybody. We missed the Industrial Revolution because we did not have enough capital. Now we don't want to miss the IT revolution, because we have enough knowledge capital.

Q & A: Pramod Mahajan (BJP Website)
As the CEO behind the Bharatiya Janata Party's poll management team, Pramod Mahajan is the man behind the Vajpayee brand project. He does not shy away from using gimmicks to sell his product. Here is what he had to say when he talked to Neena Vyas:
As the BJP's chief poll manager do you think "selling" party slogans is much like selling soap or dalda? Is a clever sales pitch more important than the product?
No. I don't think you can compare elections, where you project — I don't say sell — your party with selling consumer goods. Serious election issues cannot be compared to dalda or soap.
At the same time, traditional electioneering methods have changed over the years. When you want to reach 60 million voters, symbolism has its own impact.
Take leadership. I will not talk about Nehru, because at that time the election scene was totally different. But certainly Indira Gandhi — not Rajiv... he was really never tested; the 1984 election results were part of his heritage and in 1991 he would not have won a majority — and now, in the last few elections, Mr. Vajpayee has become some kind of a brand. Nehru was a brand name even before 1947, Indira Gandhi certainly became a brand at the national level, and lately, Mr. Vajpayee has turned into a brand. Managing elections can be compared to marketing goods, but the basics are different.
Have you perfected this art?
Certainly we have made the art of electioneering modern. That does not mean we have left our traditional ways of gathering votes. The Prime Minister is all-powerful with a 60 per cent popularity rating. But people do not elect a Prime Minister, they elect an MP. How do we merge this? I found a way of doing this through personalised audio-video messages from the Prime Minister recommending a particular candidate to voters of that specific constituency.
We selected 363 and there is not much discontent even in relation to a dozen ... we used not only traditional inputs from State and district leaders but also based the choice on extensive surveys ... and we got our candidate when the two inputs matched.
The BJP always described the Congress not as a party but a group around a leader. Now it seems the BJP has outshone the Congress in glorifying its leader ...
Frankly, I do not agree with this. I might agree with the last part ... you see, Mr. Vajpayee was always there, he was always number one, but the Vajpayee brand was not there in the past. In a competitive market when you have a person, why not use him? I will deny the other part because the BJP is still basically a cadre-based party.
The Congress was not a cadre-based party. Right from the freedom struggle days, it was a kind of a movement ... when the influence of the Congress began eroding it became a party of important individuals at all levels. The BJP was always a party of workers. We have a leader, we are using him as a brand, and I don't deny that. But at the same time, our organisational strength is intact. We have not become dependent on just Mr. Vajpayee. Brand Vajpayee is my bonus, but my basic pay comes from my organisation.
What after Mr. Vajpayee, after L.K. Advani?
Frankly, you can't predict these things. One doesn't know how the 2009 election will go ... I don't think there will be a struggle for the (next generation) leadership. It is human to aspire to reach the top. But the kind of organisational mechanism we have in the BJP, and the connections we have with the RSS ... I don't see the party facing a problem for want of a leader.
Do you think there has been an overkill with your `feel-good' and `India Shining' campaign? Have these slogans become a joke?
I don't think `feel-good' has become a joke or an insult. Even when some people use the expression `feel good' as part of a joke, it shows that the message has reached ... it is being used for cricket, for the sensex, in newspaper headlines. Whether you use or abuse `feel good', you cannot ignore it. That is a sign of success; it is the best phrase we have ever come up with in an election ... as for `India Shining', in any kind of campaign the law of diminishing returns sets in ...
The BJP claims it is truly secular, that the Congress and others are `pseudo-secular.' But with a `guru' like M.S. Golwalkar who stated that Muslims and Christians can only be second class citizens, and partners like the Shiv Sena, associates like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal, and your very own Narendra Modi, can that claim be taken seriously?
Basically, the proof of the pudding is in the eating ... before you get into Gujarat and what happened there, just remember that at the national level we have been ruling for five years. We ruled in Maharashtra, with the Shiv Sena, for five years. Did this government treat non-Hindus as second-class citizens? Did they feel more insecure? The answer is no. Yes, unfortunately Gujarat is there. It happened. At this juncture I don't want to say if Godhra had not happened and so on ... but riots are not new to India. Indira Gandhi's death led to riots, the Partition led to widespread riots ...
But what about the attitude of the party to the riots?
Before you see our party attitude, see the participation of the people in the riots ...
Does that participation justify the killings?
This is your problem. I am not justifying anything, not even one killing, I am only analysing ... when riots start, hundreds of Congressmen take part in those ... there is a Hindu-Muslim social problem ... we have a long history. Now, if you look at Mr. Vajpayee ... India-Pakistan relations have a bearing on the Hindu-Muslim question here ... I am not questioning the patriotism of Indian Muslims, but still the relations between India and Pakistan do have a bearing ... Mr. Vajpayee has to be given the credit for peace efforts.
Take Jammu and Kashmir and Article 370 [of the Constitution]. Suppose I was doing something wrong [in demanding its abrogation], and without saying so I am making an effort to change my line on Article 370 ... certainly our position has changed, it has changed on Pakistan as well, and when we talk about all accepting the court verdict on the Ram Mandir, others should welcome this.
I think, over the years the BJP has understood the minorities and they have understood the BJP... slowly the BJP is becoming centrist ... whether even one million Muslims vote for me or not, I have to rule over 140 million Muslims. And you can't rule over them without winning their minds ...
What is your assessment of the Lok Sabha election outcome?
We should cross the 300 mark ... a double century for the BJP, a century for the NDA.

Speech Delivered in India Today Conclave 2006

India Tomorrow: Bridging the Divide

Topic: Can we bridge the Infrastructure deficit?

Once Mr. Churchill was asked what are the three most difficult things in life. He said :-
(i) Climbing a wall which is leaning towards you;
(ii) kissing a woman who is kneeling away from you (anyway what else can I say on thirty-fourth wedding anniversary); and
(iii) speaking before an audience which is more interested in dinner to be served than in your speech. Maran has taken more time than Is route ki sabhi line wyast hain" and Proful was hovering over Delhi for two hours.
Sometimes I feel that we Indians are so starved of development that even signing a contract we start opening a champagne bottle as if we have already got the airport. So my job here is that both the most efficient ministers because Prabhu has brought up - I am seeing Karan is sitting here - so normally you have best actor prizes. You don't have worst actor prizes because they don't turn up.

No this is no comment to Lalu. So the best two actors of this government in all true sense have presented their case. I am here to tell you the reality of the infrastructure. Because sometimes I feel that if you see only petals of a rose, you are optimistic. If you see only thorns, you are pessimistic. But if you see both of them together, then you are realist. I want to be realist. As far as the aviation sector is concerned, Praful was thinking why I was called here, I am connected to both the sectors. And sometimes I can say that as far as the aviation boom in this country is concerned, now I have to self propagate myself, I have more contribution to make than what Praful is trying to make. He is trying to make, it is yet to be seen.

Because I remember in 1994, when the private airlines came into this country they were called as Air Taxi Operators. They were not even allowed to publish the time tables because we had a law which bestowed upon Air India and India Airlines the monopoly in Indian skies. And there was a loophole as every law has to have some kind of a Air Taxi Operator and then East West and Jet started working. The then Minister Madhav Rao Scindia tried to introduced a bill to take away this monopoly of Indian Airlines and Air India and BJP opposed it.
Now, normally now-a-days we all support Indian Airlines.

But when I became Minister, we all used to abuse Indian Airlines, because it was the only airline. And then, Madha Rao was not a minister and after than Gulam Nabi came. And accidentally I became the Chairman of Transport Committee and he sought my help and then I convinced my BJP friends and we submitted a report to take away the monopoly of Indian Airlines and Air India so that these all airlines can become the scheduled airlines and that was much before Praful signed the agreement for two airports.

That was the only government initiative taken long back in 1994 to make the Indian skies free. What happened in ten years and I am not blaming him, though he said that Pramod – see politics can't go out of anybody. He said Pramod you know I don't want to play politics from 1998. Nobody sanctioned a pie to Mumbai airport. Now, I don't know he inaugurated recently a terminal from where the money came, it did not come in last twenty-two months. It is a continued process. But I don't want to go into that.

The question comes that airlines started coming and we had a mismatch with the airport and at no point of time we ever thought how to match – now as he is really saying that two hundred aircrafts, now two thousand will come – now he promised even Khajuraho world class airport – so Praful it is a very long way to go. And fortunately we are Indians. We are not Chinese who can build two Shanghai airports in three years. So let your airport be completed in your terms. I wish you every success to continue as Minister and get it inaugurated because it is very difficult, sometimes as Minister we marry pregnant brides and we celebrate somebody else success. In last one decade from two state owned airlines, we have gone to twelve. And Praful tells me half a dozen are waiting. I would request you that we should not reach in 1953 situation. Right from Gulam Nabi, I have told liberalization doesn't mean that you purchase one aircraft and start an airline. That is not liberalization. Nowhere in the world, twenty airlines can work. It never happens. So some day we have to find out.

Otherwise, it is very easy because wet leaves, dry leaves is available and so there are many challenges before you as far as aviation is concerned. I want to show some thorns so I don't want to rub petals.

I congratulate Dayanidhi Maran. He is doing a excellent job in the last twenty-two months as far as the telecom sector is concerned. But all of us know, whether aviation , where you have two hundred aircrafts, only Praful has ordered new aircrafts. Otherwise all these aircrafts have come from private sector.

Similarly, in telecom sector also, if you look at 1994, it is all from 1994-2006, these are the twelve years when Sukhram started it. And then came one policy, then another policy, the third policy, the fourth policy – I didn't like to take names Maran because I don't survive on leaders so I don't have take names. But there were many Prime Ministers who came and went and added something to this telecom sector, took risk and today we are seeing blooming of this sector and I as a former Minister appreciate and publicly I am ready to appreciate that you are taking this relay race even little more faster than what we did in the past and I really congratulate you.

But at the same time, let me say only two things – One as far as information technology is concerned, it is neither a technology nor a business. Information technology is neither a technology nor a business. It is the fourth generation of human communication. When we came on this earth, first communication was gestures. Then came the sound. Then came the written language. Now it is digital language. It is the combination of earlier three. And so this is the new language and though the numbers which you say and which all of us are proud of, make us proud, but when you go percentage-wise that in one billion people, people who know computers, people who can open e-mails, then I think it is a very long way to go, because I am afraid we have to bridge the deficit. I am afraid Americans might forget how to write because they are going all on e-mail. And so any communication, written communication with the advance world will almost become impossible and if we want Indians to be communicative, I think we have a long way to go. One more friendly suggestion to you, not an advice, - Junior Mittal is sitting here. My only complaint against telecom sector is friends you have touched the sky as far as quantity is concerned. You are still not international standard as far as your quality is concerned. If you don't agree with me, send me a Happy Holi message, it will reach me in Diwali.

Having talked about these two most successful sectors I would very fastly would like to touch upon two challenges – I don't want to call it unsuccessful. Whether you are aviation or you are mobile phone, what do you need in this country – the biggest challenge of infrastructure is power. We have to electrify the nation. Now, Praful rightly doing a good airport from Mumbai. We all Mumbaikars feel proud of you. But the next day, we read in the newspaper that Mumbai will face twenty per cent power-cut in summer. We have never imagined that Mumbai will ever have a power-cut. Our demand and supply shortfall is nine per cent. We have the highest transmission and distribution losses. Seventy-five per cent of the small and medium entrepreneurs in this country depend upon generators.

The slogans of the government are save power. I really don't understand. I am a student of science. You can't save power. How can you save the power? Power has to be instantly used. I can't save power – I will keep two nights of darkness so that tomorrow is my wedding anniversary so I will get few more lights. You can't do that.
Generated power not used is wasted. It is a like a Five star hotel room, the night gone, the room gone. It is useless. It is zero. But instead of spend power, Government is advising us save power. We have gone to hundred thousand megawatts in last fifty years – China has gone to six hundred thousand megawatts. I must feel proud when I read Hindustan Times that we have three times more billionaires than Chinese. They have eight, we have twenty-three. And all of us feel proud for somebody else money.

I was more worried that I should have more power than China instead of more billionaires than China. And here I would like to say that privatisation is not the only way, any how we have done it the wrong way. We started privatising generation. We should have started privatising distribution first, transmission later and generation last. We started privatising generation, we have a private power project and generated power, nobody knows who will purchase it. So we went the other way round. But anyway, whatever has happened, but today I think the state has to come forward to create power. One more point, roads. Because Praful flies in the sky with a machine. Maran is borderless, he doesn't need even a machine. But most of Indians travel on roads. So world class airports are not enough. That is not enough to infrastructure.

Now, India has 3.32 million kilometres of roads. Out of which hardly, sixty-six thousand roads are national highways – two per cent. And our forty per cent of transport goes on this two per cent roads. Now we, I hope both of you will take relay race – you have asked other Ministers to take relay race – forward. We had an excellent program we called it as NHDP. Because we do not name by persons so naturally we thought it National Highway Development Program, so we called it.

We decided that in this golden quadrangle, which includes Chennai Sir, to get best road, five thousand eight hundred forty six kilometres.
Within two years we delivered two thousand eight hundred and one kilometres. And in last two years four hundred and ninety three kilometres. The remaining is two thousand five hundred and fifty two.

Where are these roads? We had an excellent program, all of you know, Praful must be knowing it – Pradhan Mantri Gramin Sadak Yojna. It was named after Pradhan Mantri, so any Pradhan Mantri could have claimed success for it. But in present government Pradhan Mantris are not allowed to claim the success. And so that Yojna seems to be dropped.
I don't know what is happening to this Pradhan Mantri – can we not Indians not built up, yes we can built up. We have the Metro in Delhi, we have Mumbai Pune express highway, built up during regime of one government, we could have built up in Mumbai thirty-three flyovers one flyover per month. We could do it. But this road sector is waiting.

I don't want to go on an on then you will think that and there are too many foreigners sitting here so this high-fly Indian tricolour – so nobody should get this opposition leader is just trying to bring it down and down and down. But Sir, last three – this urban development is one infrastructure. You should not forget. Forty per cent of Indians are living in urban area. There is nothing like rural urban.
Forget about it. All rural India is coming to urban India because in the villages you have nothing to export. And when you have nothing to export, you export the population. Bangladesh does it, so does the Indian villages. And so naturally we have to see – look at the slums from – why Praful can't make a base to airport because half of his land is occupied by slum. He can't vacate it because his colleague MP will not allow him to do.

Now this slum – Is India slum? When I went first to U.K. on their invitations, I was from Mumbai so I want to see slums and how you develop them. So they showed me something and when I sat with the City counsellors so I asked them one small question – how did you define a slum. Now, he said slum is an apartment which is not fully air-conditioned and there is no twenty-four hours hot and cold water supply. I said with this logic Taj Palace is a slum. Now we have changed Surat, we have changed Thane, we have changed Nagpur. So it is not that we can't change the cities, the urban areas. This one great infrastructure you need, you need water management. This water bottle is as costly as petrol. Slowly the gap between water and petrol, you can't put it in car, you can't drink petrol, both have same prices, you can't mix even. Now we had an excellent program, now Dayanidhi fights for Kabir, rightly so, we had an excellent program of connecting Ganga with Cavery. A river connectivity. I don't know what has happened to that program. I don't hear it. Water is life.

The air, champagne is all extra. Thirst of water cannot be met with any other liquid. So this kind of a river connectivity is more needed. Friends I don't want to go on an on as I said. Governments are relay race. Prabhu, Arun called me today here for this gala dinner to speak. I felt very happy. You know when you are not a Minister, you miss such occasions.

I am sorry you thought about me, no.. no I am warning them. After having heard them, I am confident if their tribe increase in their own ministry, there is no scope, only one can be added. So if you have to be replaced, India can breach the infrastructure deficit. It needs only three things, sustained commitment which Dayanidhi Maran is showing in his sector or which Praful Patel is showing as far as Delhi and Mumbai airports are concerned. What you need is sustained commitment. Secondly, you need a continuation of policy. Governments may come, governments may go. People don't vote on airports, who told you, after Indian shining again you are telling me that good airports are going to give me votes. Who told you that people vote on telecom.
Sir, you took the relay race. I made all the speeches before you.

I made bhikari to carry telephone, but they did not vote for us. And so government comes, governments go, what you need is continuance of a policy. And thirdly what you need is some degree of a national consensus as far as the infrastructure policies are concerned. If you have these three things, I am sure that the dream which Dayanidhi is seeing or which Praful is seeing and trying to fulfil, I wish they will fulfil. If they don't I will come.

Thank you very much.

In memory of Shree Pramod Mahajan

Saturday, May 06, 2006

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