Pramodji's :Last Interview on CNN IBN

It has been 10 days since the BJP's twin yatras got underway, but have they become a non-event? The media has begun to ignore them. So, is the BJP on a yatra to nowhere? That’s the critical question that Karan Thapar puts to the General secretary BJP, Pramod Mahajan on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Mid-Day and Hindu newspapers call the yatra a flop, The Hindustan Times and The Indian Express are talking about bored audiences, The Times of India and The Telegraph say that people get up and leave when L K Advani starts to speak. Was the yatra a mistake?

Pramod Mahajan: No, I have personally visited Advaniji during this yatra in Maharashtra. And I was with him throughout his Maharashtra tour - in the tribal areas, rural areas, the sugar belt, the NCP belt and the Congress belt. And I think the yatra is tremendously successful and we were able to communicate our viewpoint, like the mid-time appraisal of the UPA Government, to the people of our country.

Karan Thapar: Except that you are talking to your own party cadres. You are talking to people who anyways vote for BJP. What is the point of preaching to the converted?

Pramod Mahajan: No, that is not true. Cadres don't come in thousands and they don't come throughout your journey. Advaniji’s followers are like a human chain that follows him across the country.

Karan Thapar: Newspapers have ignored you. You have disappeared from television completely.

Pramod Mahajan: No, firstly newspapers have not ignored us. And we do understand that when one embarks on a 35-day yatra, one doesn’t expect a Delhi-based newspaper to give a front-page headline every day, especially when you are travelling somewhere in Andhra Pradesh.

Karan Thapar: But you didn't get a front page on the second day also. First you disappeared from the inside pages and now you have disappeared all together.

Pramod Mahajan: No, that is not true. When we were around Maharashtra we made headlines in that state. When we will be in Karnataka then we will make headlines there. So, it has become a regional issue. One can’t expect headlines in Delhi every day when we are travelling the length and breadth of the country.

Karan Thapar: Let's try and establish some of the facts of the yatra. Is it not true that L K Advani took the decision without properly informing or consulting any of the senior party leaders?

Pramod Mahajan: No, he consulted many senior party leaders before embarking on this yatra.

Karan Thapar: But was it in a proper formal meeting?

Pramod Mahajan: There was no formal meeting. You don’t always need a formal meeting for everything.

Karan Thapar: So, it was individual telephone conversations but no formal meeting?

Pramod Mahajan: No, it was not individual telephone conversations either. He discussed it with many colleagues who were there during the Parliament session. He also discussed it with me, which was a telephonic conversation, as I was in Assam.

Karan Thapar: Is it not the case that the decision was communicated to Rajnath Singh as a fait accompli and he had no alternative but to accept it?

Pramod Mahajan: See, any discussion on phone is communication technically. He definitely sought the advice and the permission of the party president. They both took the decision together.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that he sought the permission and the advice of Rajnath Singh. But on March 15 Singh told the Business Standard, "Advaniji called me up and said that the consensus among party leaders in Delhi is that such a yatra should take place and I concurred." In other words, he was communicated a consensus; he wasn't asked for permission.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. What he told Rajnathji, who was in Varanasi at that time, was that he has discussed the matter with his collegues and they also agreed that he should go on a yatra. And then Rajnathji said: “Yes, I also agree.”

Karan Thapar: But isn't this also true that Rajnath Singh spent weeks trying to persuade Advani to give up the idea.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I don't think Rajnathji tried to persuade Advaniji for weeks.

Karan Thapar: Your party colleagues say that he was almost in tears.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t know who you are talking about. Nobody was in tears and why should one be anyways? Everyday Rajnathji is getting good publicity, he is the party president and he is travelling throughout the country. Why should he be unhappy about it?

Karan Thapar: Such good publicity that in between he even gave up the yatra and left for Meerut because he was looking for any excuse to disappear.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am sorry but his Meerut visit was on the last day of his yatra’s first leg. If he didn’t visit the city then you would have said that the man continued with his yatra though there was such a tragedy.

Karan Thapar: Is it also not true that despite whatever Atal Bihari Vajpayee may say, when Sonia Gandhi announced her resignation from Parliament, he called Advani and said that this is the perfect excuse and opportunity to call the yatra off.

Pramod Mahajan: I really don’t know how the press publishes such things. It sounds as if Vajapyee has personally told somebody in the press regarding this issue. Vajpayee never rang Advaniji asking him to abandon the yatra.

Karan Thapar: Your own party colleagues are saying this.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are these colleagues?

Karan Thapar: Your own members of the BJP, individuals as well as people in groups are informing journalists.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are these party members? Can you quote or name anybody? Has anybody who matters spoken to the press? Only then can I support what you are saying.

Karan Thapar: They say that the yatra is a desperate attempt by Advani to promote himself and to eclipse Rajnath Singh’s leadership.

Pramod Mahajan: Who are they? I don't know these invisible theys you are talking about. Secondly, what does Advaniji have to project? He has been in politics for the last five decades. He was the president of BJP for 15 years. He was the deputy-prime minister. Why does he need to project himself in any way?

Karan Thapar: Except that at the moment his career is declining. The RSS is upset with him and the party itself has lost confidence in him.

Pramod Mahajan: These are all your interpretations. During the yatra, RSS Sarsanghchalak Sudarshanji called Adavniji when he was in Solapur. He asked after his health and how the yatra was going. The Sarsanghchalak himself calling Adavniji during the yatra is no indication for you, but some Tom Dick or Harry who is not ready to come on record tells you that RSS is opposing Advaniji and you believe them.

Karan Thapar: Talking about the Sarsanghchalak, let me point it out to you that Madan Das Devi told The Indian Express on March 20, "The Sangh has nothing to do with Advani's decision to launch yet another yatra."

Pramod Mahajan: I can say that Mohan Bhagwat, who is the general secretary of RSS, the second-in-command, has officially said the yatra is a good decision. And naturally the Sangh would support it.

Karan Thapar: The Sangh Sarchalak who holds the number one position in the RSS has issued a statement published by the Organiser on April 2 and all it said was that there is no question of the Sangh opposing it. That is not strong support; it is the most lukewarm support possible.

Pramod Mahajan: The press had been saying that the Sangh is opposing the yatra. So, the Sarsanghchalak said that the Sangh is not opposing it.

Karan Thapar: Where are the Sangh cadres supporting L K Adavni's yatra? They are supporting Rajnath Singh in Orissa, not supporting Advani.

Pramod Mahajan: This is again a media mischief. The Sangh is not expected to join every political programme of BJP. Actually, nobody in the media understands the relationship between the RSS and the BJP. RSS members are not there to make BJP programmes a success.

Karan Thapar: But the Leader of the Opposition seems to be attracting no crowd during his yatra. Newspapers are ignoring it, papers are calling it a flop, people are walking away, so one would expect the Sangh to come out and support him. But they are supporting Rajnath Singh and not Advani.

Pramod Mahajan: Who said that to you?

Karan Thapar: The papers are reporting it. Individual RSS members are saying so.

Pramod Mahajan: No, please give me a minute. Now, who said they are supporting Rajnath? One reporter writes the RSS is supporting Rajnath Singh, as if the reporter knows what is really happening in the RSS. Let me first tell you what the RSS is expected to do. It is an organisation, which does its own work. The second Sarsangh Chalak Param Pujya Guruji’s birth centenary is going on. So they are not expected to follow Advaniji's yatra.

Karan Thapar: That is precisely why they (RSS) are angry with Advani. The RSS wanted to concentrate on Guruji’s anniversary and not on the yatra.

Pramod Mahajan: The BJP’s political programmes should be done by BJP workers. We should not expect RSS workers to support every programme we take.

Karan Thapar: Let’s look at the yatra in another light. In the middle of elections and exams, when temperatures are touching 40 degrees and when there is no palpable Hindu anger in the country, is this the right time for a political yatra?

Pramod Mahajan: Who is to decide this? You or we?

Karan Thapar: The crowd's response will determine whether the yatra is a success or not.

Pramod Mahajan: Have you seen the crowds? I have seen the crowd throughout the journey. I am an eyewitness of the number of people who are coming to meet Advaniji. I can show you the cuttings of local newspapers also. So, somebody sitting in Delhi and a couple of newspapers cannot be the gospel truth.

Karan Thapar: Does the yatra have a clear-cut purpose or motive? It began as a national integration yatra and then converted into a Bharat Suraksha Yatra. It began with twin names and ended up with a five-fold message. Now, the leaflet officially issued by the BJP says that the Bharat Suraksha Yatra has nine separate themes. What is the yatra about?

Pramod Mahajan: The UPA Government has completed two years at the Centre. So, we have taken this opportunity to mobilise public opinion against the misdeeds of UPA for the past two years. So, naturally right from farmers to bomb blasts, everything is taught, depending upon the audience you are addressing in a particular state.

Karan Thapar: One of your critical themes is what you call minority appeasement. And one of your most important examples is the manner in which the UPA Government has defied the Supreme Court by converting the Foreigner's Act into a second IMDT Act. This would have had great resonance in Assam in the middle of elections. But your yatra ignores North East India completely.

Pramod Mahajan: Please try to understand, the yatra started on April 6 and Assam elections were over by April 10.

Karan Thapar: So you could have spent four days in Assam.

Pramod Mahajan: Please try to understand the geography of this country. Advaniji has spent about a week in Assam campaigning on the subject you are talking about. Rajnath Singh has spent five days in Assam. You don't need a yatra to go on campaigning against IMDT or against UPA Government. Advaniji has done his duty.

Karan Thapar: He could have started the yatra earlier if the object of the yatra is to educate people.

Pramod Mahajan: I again ask, why do you need a yatra to go to Assam? Advaniji wen
t to Assam for a week. He campaigned for what you are saying so where does the question of a yatra arise.

Karan Thapar: If minority appeasement is such a critical element then why are you spending so much time in BJP-ruled states. Are you suggesting that your own governance is responsible for minority appeasement?

Pramod Mahajan: The first state he (Advani) started was BJP-ruled. However, the second state was a Congress-ruled state.

Karan Thapar: Yes, but after that you have got Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Karnataka, Chattisgarh, Jharkand, and these are all BJP-ruled states.

Pramod Mahajan: Well, what can I do if most of the states are BJP-ruled.

Karan Thapar: But, you are ignoring the whole of North East and Kerala. Kerala passed a resolution against Abdul Nasser Madani, leader of the People’s Democratic Party, and it concerns Advani but it is not part of your yatra.

Pramod Mahajan: I am going to Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Punjab, which are all non-BJP states. Now if there are so many BJP-ruled states then what can I do?

Karan Thapar: But, the states where your message would be most effective have been ignored. States where illegal Bangladeshi infiltration matters, like North East and West Bengal, have been ignored by you. States where in fact Assemblies are passing resolutions that the BJP objects to like Kerala have been ignored. The states where your message is needed you have avoided.

Pramod Mahajan: I have answered you several number of times as far as Assam is concerned. And as far as the political message is concerned, Advani has given maximum number of days to Assam. He is going to campaign in West Bengal and Kerala during the yatra weekends.

Karan Thapar: But why aren't they part of the yatra?

Pramod Mahajan: Logistically, it is not possible to go everywhere.

Karan Thapar: If logistics is the concern, then answer this question. A second major issue that the yatra raises is to expose Sonia Gandhi’s so-called fake sacrifice. It is written in BJP's official leaflet. It is listed as the third most important point. It is one of the five-fold message. She faces an election in Rae Bareli in a short while but you are ignoring it. Are you scared of challenging her face-to-face?

Pramod Mahajan: The yatra is not ignoring Rae Bareli. Definitely election campaign leaders will go to Rae Bareli and secondly Sonia Gandhi's so-called sacrifice will be over the moment she files for nomination.

Karan Thapar: But it is one of the aims of your yatra however much you may dispute it or be embarrassed by it.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am not embarrassed by it. It is not the main objective of the yatra.

Karan Thapar: Let me point out another main objective of the yatra. Though you may not call it the main one, but the BJP leaflet does. The yatra talks about the need to protect what it calls India's parliamentary democracy. You talk at great length about the illegal unconstitutional dissolution of the Bihar Assembly. Five months after the Bihar elections this is not a subject which is going to arouse popular passion. This is an academic seminar subject. Why do you bring it up now?

Pramod Mahajan: Again I say that there may be 10 points written in a leaflet.

Karan Thapar: This is one of the top five.

Pramod Mahajan: I don't agree with it.

Karan Thapar: You don't agree with it? But it is part of the official leaflet issued by the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: Karan, you are giving too much importance to a leaflet which has some 10-12 points. And the priority of the points will be decided by where one goes.

Karan Thapar: But this is the brochure officially issued by the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: Just to make a point debatable, you are giving too much importance to the Bihar Assembly dissolution.

Karan Thapar: It seems to me just to escape from the embarrassment you are trying to minimise the importance of your own party's brochure.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I am not minimising any brochure but I am not reading it as a Bible either.

Karan Thapar: This yatra serves no useful purpose. Far from enthusing the country it is going to confuse people.

Pramod Mahajan: I said the yatra is serving a very good purpose. It is galvanising the BJP cadre, it is creating a public opinion against the UPA and I am very sure by the end of the yatra we will mobilise millions of BJP workers in this country.

Karan Thapar: All this yatra does is prove that L K Advani is an old man in a hurry who is prepared to put his personal ambition ahead of his party's interests.

Pramod Mahajan: No, no. I think this is a very wrong allegation. It saddens me with the way you are asking. Advaniji is not in a hurry. He has served this nation for five decades. And accusing this man of having personal ambitions only makes me sad.

Karan Thapar: In January you wrote for the Organiser, "The chariot of BJP dharmaraj has touched the ground. The BJP should not lose faith in itself. The BJP should try and come out of its present eclipse." What exactly is the problem that BJP is suffering from?

Pramod Mahajan: I think that after we lost power in 2004 there were many problems that the BJP faced. Naturally, there was some kind of internal indiscipline. There was lack of collective decision-making system. And when I was writing this piece I thought before we formed the government the chariot was more like the dharmaraj. The chariot was nearly flying a few inches above the ground but now it had touched the ground. So, we must have the BJP in which we take collective decision. We should be a disciplined party. There should integrity, family-like atmosphere amongst the leaders. That sort of a thing was in my mind when I wrote that piece.

Karan Thapar: You were talking about all the things BJP used to be but no longer is. And you are now saying one must go back to that.

Pramod Mahajan: Yes. After one has travelled about 25 years as BJP and 50 years as Jan Sangh, there has been an increase in quantity but there is a slight decrease in quality. So, some sort of a quality control mechanism is needed for BJP.

Karan Thapar: Have BJP cadres and BJP quarters begun to lose faith in the BJP.

Pramod Mahajan: No, I am not really talking about faith in BJP. This is because if you look at the elections since 2004 we are still winning one election after another.

Karan Thapar: You lost Maharashtra, though you shouldn't have.

Pramod Mahajan: I lost Maharashtra marginally.

Karan Thapar: So, when you say the BJP should not lose faith in itself then what do you mean?

Pramod Mahajan: What I mean is that we should work with self confidence. Whether you lose elections or win them, you should have faith in your ideology. One should also have faith in one's leadership, organisation and working strength.

Karan Thapar: Twice in the last one year you have
said that the BJP is in crisis. You said it in May last year and then in January this year. Is the crisis
continuing?

Pramod Mahajan: I don't think we are out of the crisis completely. We still have a long way to go.

Karan Thapar: You are frank enough to admit that it is in crisis. In the Organiser article that I quoted sometime back you also wrote, "A political party must always remember that its basic vote comes from those who believe in the ideology of the party. Good intentions and empathy are not good enough. Clear cut political ideology is needed." Has the ideology of the BJP become confused today?

Pramod Mahajan: See, the ideology is the same. So there is no question of ideology becoming diluted, confused or unclear. Only the projection of ideology should be in such a way that people understand what one stands for.

Karan Thapar: So there are problems with the projection of the BJP ideology?

Pramod Mahajan: Definitely, there are problems with the communication of this ideology with the masses.

Karan Thapar: In March 2004, BJP came out with a vision statement. At that time you personally told me that this would hold for 20 years. Less than two years later on critical issues like Article 370 and Uniform Civil Code, the vision statement has been overtaken. Was the old vision statement wrong or is the new vision mistaken?
Pramod Mahajan: I will tell you two things. As far as the Uniform Civil Code or the Article 370 is concerned, the BJP as a political party will have to position itself what exactly it wants.

Karan Thapar: You mean it hasn’t made up his mind.
Pramod Mahajan: Let me repeat again what I said. The BJP will have to position itself on exactly what it wants. We don’t want Article 370 to be part of the Indian constitution.

Karan Thapar: In the vision statement there was no mention of abrogating Article 370 at all. One day before the vision statement came out LK Advani, who was then Deputy Prime Minister, actually said that the BJP would no longer press for abrogation of Article 370. Yet in January this year at his speech to the national council your new party president brought abrogation of Article 370 right back on the agenda. So, clearly in two years on this one point the party has changed its vision.
Pramod Mahajan: As far as Article 370 is concerned, we believe that Article 370 was temporary. It should not be part of the Indian constitution. About Uniform Civil Code, all along we believe that Uniform Civil Code should be made applicable to this country. Having said so one must understand that for abolition of Article 370, you need two-third majority in Lok Sabha, and not only in Lok Sabha you need two-third majority in Rajya Sabha too.

Karan Thapar: I am saying that the position that you took on this issue in the vision statement has changed and that vision statement was for 20 years. That is why I asked you, is the party's ideology changing?
Pramod Mahajan: It’s not ideology changing; again I am saying the vision statement was in the light of the NDA government.

Karan Thapar: So, depending on the circumstances the vision keeps changing.
Pramod Mahajan: Vision does not change. My position on Article 370 or Uniform Civil Code never changes. But application of my vision or position depends upon the political strength that I have in the Indian Parliament.

Karan Thapar: The problem is it’s not just in terms of vision statement that party seems to be confused today. Your party president and your leader of the Opposition said different things about Jinnah, about Hindutva, about the RSS, about the need for ideology, about corruption in your ranks, and even about what the colour of the party's flag should be. Instead of speaking in one voice the party seems to speak in multiple voices.
Pramod Mahajan: No, except Jinnah, rest of the things you mentioned, I don’t think there is any difference of opinion.

Karan Thapar: Even on the small issue of the flag. Advani says that there is no issue of this nature, but Rajnath Singh clearly says that he has been approached by people about the colour of the flag.
Pramod Mahajan: What Rajnath Singh said that some people approached him about changing the colour of the flag. Advaniji said no such decision has been taken. Rajnath, when asked next day, said no such decision has been taken. Where is the difference of opinion?

Karan Thapar: Its not just that they have differences of opinion about flags, now today Advani seems to have reservations about decisions taken by the Vajpayee government over the handling of the Kandhar hijack. He now has the problems with the past not just the present.
Pramod Mahajan: No he didn’t say anything. I was sitting next to him.

Karan Thapar: He made it clear that his own position had been expressed in Cabinet, indicating that his position was different to that of the Cabinet. Everyone interpreted it as a sign of differences.

Pramod Mahajan: Whatever you want to interpret you are free to interpret. First thing he didn’t make any statement. When somebody asked the question he said that ‘it’s an old issue whatever I had to say about it I only said in the Cabinet’.

Karan Thapar: Then the press interpreted that answer as a sign of differences between himself and Vajpayee. Why did Advani not issued a correction.

Pramod Mahajan: Correction about what.

Karan Thapar: To say that press has misinterpreted me.

Pramod Mahajan: No he has already said it.

Karan Thapar: He has not.

Pramod Mahajan: He has.

Karan Thapar: Then why today is Vajpayee upset.

Pramod Mahajan: Who told you? I think Vajpayee is accessible to the press, he only talks to the press, if he is upset only press knows, if he is going to Lucknow press knows, and we don’t know anything.

Karan Thapar: Let me ask you a blunt question. How much damaged to the clarity of the BJP's ideology was done by Advani's comments about Mohd. Ali Jinnah.

Pramod Mahajan: I said that as far his comments about Mohd. Jinnah is concerned I think about 99 per cent people in the BJP don’t agree with him.

Karan Thapar:So has it done damage to BJP's clarity of ideology?

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think because if 99 per cent people have clarified what they want to say, Advani saying one thing does not damage the BJP's ideology.

Karan Thapar: So Advani was in a position of one per cent.

Pramod Mahajan: I can say that on Jinnah's issue.

Karan Thapar: Its a humiliating position for the leader of the Opposition to be in.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think its humiliating. You can’t have everybody going along at every point of time in your life.

Karan Thapar: But to have 99 per cent of your party against him is embracing, and it happened when he was party president as well.

Pramod Mahajan: We don’t agree what he said about Jinnah.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that as the result today people do not have a clear idea about what the BJP stands for.

Pramod Mahajan: No I don’t think so but I think that whenever you are communicating with one billion people, we should bring more and more clarity as far your thoughts are concern.

Karan Thapar: And clearly Advani didn’t help in bringing more and more clarity, did he.

Pramod Mahajan: He is the only person who has brought the maximum clarity to the BJP ideology in last two decades.

Karan Thapar: Except on the Jinnah issue.

Pramod Mahajan: Yes except on the Jinnah issue.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that the problems that we are talking about, and they are serious problems, problems to do with differences between the leadership, demoralisation of cadre, differences of ideology. Can these problems put right in the year 2006 or will things get worse before they get better.

Pramod Mahajan: I don’t think things will get worse. Things have started getting better. I am very sure that in couple of years from now when we will face elections in 2009 things will be absolutely clear.

Karan Thapar: That also means that the full escape from the present crisis will happen in a couple of years, not before that.

Pramod Mahajan: First one must understand in a political life the crisis does not come over night crisis does not vanishes over night. It takes time to build up like the clouds and it takes time to clear.

Karan Thapar: Pramod Mahajan, that is a very clear answer. Thank you very much for speaking to Devil’s Advocate.